Barefoot Forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > World Barefoot Topics > World Barefoot Discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Deleting the hesitation rule for multiple turns
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Deleting the hesitation rule for multiple turns - Event Date: April 15 2007

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
aharris View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group


Joined: April 03 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 45
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Calendar Event: Deleting the hesitation rule for multiple turns
    Posted: April 18 2007 at 10:10am
I'd welcome skier's views on this idea. PLEASE, PLEASE join in and let me know what you think...

How about DELETING the rule entirely.   Rotation rules stay of course.   The penalty is TIME alone.

Rodney comes into the course and does 4 180's all in the same direction and a couple of seconds after the 4th 180 portion of the sequence or turn is completed the timer goes off.

The score is a 720 turn.

In the second pass he does 3 180 turns in the same direction and then a one foot and then 2 180 turns in the same direction and then the timer goes.

The score is a 540 turn, a one foot, and a 360 turn.

Someone kick the teeth out of that one then!!!!    I tried but I can't seem to do it.    COULD THIS WORK?    I think it could....

THANKS for reading.   Now TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK....

Edited by aharris - April 18 2007 at 10:15am
Back to Top
Dan.Cummings View Drop Down
ABC Board Moderators
ABC Board Moderators
Avatar
Dan Cummings

Joined: February 06 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1094
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2007 at 3:18pm
Andy,  I'd rather see us define hesitation and educate our judges about how to apply that definition rather than start paying someone for something less than perfect.  That penalizes the people who have worked  hard to get them done right.  Just my .02 
Back to Top
aharris View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group


Joined: April 03 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 45
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2007 at 3:49pm
Thanks for responding Dan.

Won't your solution lead us down the same road and to the same dilemma that we're currently at.   What is a hesitation?   How long?   0.5 second?   1 second?   2 seconds?   You tell me.   Then tell me how we measure it.

I'm not convinced that defining a hesitation is going to make anything other than another nightmare for our judges to deliberate over, and yet another ream of complex rule changes to chew over for our ever-decreasing judging ranks.

What we have now works OK so do we need to fix it?    Well yes, according to one of our leading coaches here in EAME, where our skiing population is getting smaller and smaller.

If we allowed any length of heistation, and that encouraged people into the Sport (I'm led to believe it would) then shouldn't we embrace the idea?

I'm still wondering about it....
Back to Top
Dan.Cummings View Drop Down
ABC Board Moderators
ABC Board Moderators
Avatar
Dan Cummings

Joined: February 06 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1094
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2007 at 5:24pm
Andy,  I'd be interested in listening to why this coach believes we need to change it rather than teaching his students to turn without the hesitation.  It can be done, as shown by any number of competitors.
 
I also fail to see how changing that rule would bring more skiers to the sport.
 
I agree defining "hesitation" is a challenge, but all of our tricks are subjective. ie. did they go 180 on a tumble, were they all the way to the back on a turn, did they touch down early, etc.  I see this as no more difficult to define than where the wake crest is on the in-board boats.
 
I don't see dropping the rule because we struggle to define it as a good option.  By making tricks downgrade-able we have already made it more difficult for the judges.  Now we have to look for butted out, not 180, foot in the strap but not let go, etc.
 
Plus, I still feel dropping it would penalize the skiers who HAVE put in the training to make their turns continuous.  How can we pay someone who doesn't do that the same as someone who does.  Again, just my opinion.
Back to Top
aharris View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group


Joined: April 03 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 45
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2007 at 5:30pm
I'll try and get Hilmar to come in to the conversation Dan.   Problem is he ain't one of us keyboard types!!!

The short answer to your question is this.   The penalising of the skier will be the time it takes him to do the trick.   We're talking about may be one 720 turn in the pass and that would be it.   No reverse would be applicable of course - it must follow the basic and be in the same pass.

Think about the points he'd score - no problem for the skier who can do them properly.

TIME is the penalty
Back to Top
Dan.Cummings View Drop Down
ABC Board Moderators
ABC Board Moderators
Avatar
Dan Cummings

Joined: February 06 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1094
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2007 at 5:48pm
Andy,  I saw Heinrich's run posted on the web for a while and the time penalty for the delays in his turns would be minimal.  If you eliminate that rule, his run would possibly be a world record, when in fact it doesn't compare to Keith's in my opinion.  I hate to use actual names as examples, but the point is the time penalty you refer to could actually be very minimal for the benefit received of scoring all those turns.  It just doesn't seem fair to me to reward a 720 that has hesitation the same as one that is done by the book.
 
I'd love to hear others chime in here.
Back to Top
Foot View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group
Avatar

Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2007 at 6:41am
I am more in favor of putting the words "clear hesitation" or something along those lines to define "hesitation"

I spoke with Dan earlier this year about the ABC being harsher in its interpretation of "continuous" than the rest of the world...Where most do not see hesitation many are being educated that there is a hesitation..

This comment is not meant to accuse the ABC is doing it "wrong"...It is being done according to the interpretation that has developed there while elsewhere the interpretation is less strict...And I will agree with Dan in advance that it is sometimes WAY too far the other direction....

It is HARD to pin down in words but I think we need to move towards "if there is a doubt then there is no hesitation".. I believe that we need to stick with the "no hesitation" but the hesitation must be clear and compelling...something that would be apparent to the average layman on the street kind of hesitation...The hesitations that EVERYBODY on shore sees....The kind of hesitation that all 3 judges see...not just the people in record review...

We need to find the happy medium where an accomplished skier can score multiples without having to change their technique to a more dangerous technique...which is the problem for the skiers who dont step through...multiple over 360's are impossible for some techniques if they are to be compared to multiples accomplished using another technique...BUT I still see them as multiples..

I always call up the ballerina as my example...The ballerina is the BEST athlete at spinning...but I see hesitations in their spins if I fixate on one body part...watch the whole picture and the hesitation goes away...Hesitation?? No hesitation?? That depends on whose interpretation you use...
AA Region rules...Its hard to be humble when you're this good
Back to Top
aharris View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group


Joined: April 03 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 45
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2007 at 9:00am
Yes, we need to hear from others.     Come on SKIERS have your say and help us with this.   Or does everyone just trust us to come up with a solution that is right and proper and serves the purpose.

Remember.   This idea comes from the grass-roots end of the Sport.   It's all about promotion and development of the sport at the BOTTOM of the pyramid, not the top.

It begs another thought.   Do we need a different set of rules for novice turners.   I for one have always preached that the World rules are simply for the World Champs and that Feds are free to do what they like at National level.   But are they?   Not if you ask most countries - they all say they run to World rules or as close to them a possible becuase skiers want to rank in the World and Region Standings.   We must have a level playing field - but with 2 sets of rules???   That doesn't fly really does it.

Think about this - does it matter if Dan's 720 turn took him 14 seconds to do, and that was his best score of the year, Foot's 720 took him 10 seconds and then he did a couple of tumbles and that was his best score of the year and Andy's 720 took 5 seconds and he did a couple of toe turns as well and that was his best score of the year.

I don't think we want to define hesitation do we?   How?   What's a clear hesitation?

As for the skier who tricks fast well, he's going for quantity instead of quality - that's the risk he takes.   He could fall or get tricks cut - HIS RISK.   As for the skier who tricks slow and clean, he's going for quality not quantity - he risks runing out of time - HIS RISK.    I see 2 different risks but the playing field is still the same.

Now equate that back to the grass roots turner and I still think it's fair for all.   Or is it?
Back to Top
geauxstfooter View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast


Joined: March 28 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 83
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geauxstfooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2007 at 6:05pm
?

Edited by geauxstfooter - June 06 2007 at 8:01pm
Back to Top
Foot View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group
Avatar

Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2007 at 5:12am
Thanks for that PJ...Good to hear sound reasoning and logic from a past World Champion and long time skier....

We need to get the word out to the rest of the skiing population about this forum so we can hear other peoples opinions and concerns...

Please talk this forum up info at the next tournament...let the others know we NEED their input...
Thanks again
Foot
AA Region rules...Its hard to be humble when you're this good
Back to Top
aharris View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group


Joined: April 03 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 45
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2007 at 6:10am
I agree.   PJ makes a hell of a lot of sense.

As for when we vote on it - well a few more responses like yours PJ and I think the WBC will be compelled to take a serious look at this.

Thanks for your logic and dead straight reasoning.   Much appreciated.

Andy
Back to Top
Joe M View Drop Down
ABC Board
ABC Board


Joined: December 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 130
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2007 at 3:18pm
Guys, all good points, but something just seems a miss if we comlpletely eliminate the hesitation rule.
    Dan makes a good point with the example of Heinrich's run... although  he has hesitation his penalty of time is very minimal and that would indeed be a new world record.  Is this where we want to go.....?
    Andy's example serve well for the other end of the spectrum... as his skier takes an entire run to complete a 720 turn, so yes he is truley penalized in time.
    If we look at Foot's approach of something along the lines of if there is doubt then there is no hesitation... is that not saying that ther is not hesitation rule??
    We really need to try and define this better, such that the judgment factor is truley minimized.  There has got to be a way to apply some type of rule, definition or process of elimination to this question.
    I agree Foot, that the US judges seem to judge this to a tighter degree but is that correct??
    This is why we need as many skier's inputs as possible to come to a place that benefits the sport as a whole.
    I wish I had the answer but for now I'm just thinking out load........
Back to Top
aharris View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group


Joined: April 03 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 45
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2007 at 3:38pm
It's a tough one isn't it Joe.   Dan: thanks for solicting the skiers input; I'm looking forward to hearing from them on this one.

Joe: How do we better define "hesitation."    I see the only way to do so is by defining how long a hesitation must be to qualify for the judges to downgrade or cut the trick.   If we do that then how do the judges measure it?   It's a non-starter for me.

I guess we could say that we'll downgrade any turn with hesitation in the turn.   But that becomes even more subjective than it is now and in my mind, the skier will be getting penalised twice (time and downgrade).

Another problem will be the skier who momentarily hesitates compared to the one who definitely hesitates.   Both would get the same amount of downgrade - not fair.
Back to Top
Joe M View Drop Down
ABC Board
ABC Board


Joined: December 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 130
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2007 at 4:07pm
Andy,
       Yes this is a tough one!  I think you will need to put on your lucky blue Chapeau that you wore in Adna to solve this one!
    I agree that a definition on a set time will only end up withan issue on how to measure that time.  Maybe a starting point is something along Foot's line of if in doubt then it's not there, (although I don't completely agree with that) but I would greatly like to get several skier's inputs on this and hopefully some advanced skiers that have perfected the turns and some not so advanced skiers.
    If a skier performs a slightly hesitated turn and is downgraded, compared to a skier that has a longer heisitation, he suffers a bigger consequence.  This can't be fair?
Don't get me wrong I do see you point,
Back to Top
KennyK View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: December 31 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 221
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KennyK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2007 at 4:49pm
Ok, being a multiple turner myself, I've worked very hard at having my turns as continuous as possible. I feel there should be some sort of hesitation rule applied. I like Foots idea of having a rule in place that penalizes a "clear " hesitation. I'm not going to name names, but there are several skiers who have clear hesitations in their multiple turns. The type of hesitation  that can be seen at first glance; no need for video or rewind, or slo- mo. Ifyou have to think about it, replay it or freeze frame it, then it should be good.
 
I'll use myself for example: I won open mens tricks at last years nationals, setting a pending record. The record was denied after video review and I could'nt have agreed more on the trick they took away. It was my reverse
3 to the back and it deserved to be cut. I watched the video before I read the breakdown and said to myself,"self", your reverse had a clear hitch and should be eliminated.
 
Now the problem is that all three judges had scored it initially. So, do we eliminate video? The problem I see with that is that if I was judging myself from the boat on that run, I would'nt have scored that turn. So it's clear that we will run into issues with some judges seeing it one way, and some the other.
 
Now, even tho I feel that turn was'nt good, there are multiples that I've seen in tournaments that were even more obviously hitched.
 
So what's the answer?.....I don't know to tell you the truth. However, I do feel that eliminating the hesitation rule all together would suck!
 
I hear that the penalty is in the slowness of the rotation...... I disagree, because there are guys that can ski hitched multiples very cleanly and lose very little time.
 
I don't feel the answer with dwindling numbers lies in multiple turns. It goes much deeper than that. In my opinion,it has a lot to do with the lack of water to train on to be competitive in this sport. With the emergence of wakeboarding over the years and the availability of large, luxurious inboard boats, the lakes are being squeezed so that the every day barefooter has way less of an opportunity to find prime water. At least that's the way it is around here. If you don't get up at the crack of dawn, and you only have lake access, you might as well forget it.
 
Like I said before, I can defininetly be warmed up to some kind of definition that everyone is "clear" on for multiples.
 
I vote for Foots idea.
 
Kenny
KennyK
Back to Top
Bergthold View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: February 13 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bergthold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2007 at 5:17pm

I like the elimination of the hesitation rule, and making time the penalty!  I have skied tournments since 1984, judged since 1987, and served on the ABC Rules Committee.  As a Senior Judge I have sat in the boat and not paid skiers many times for a multiple turns because of how the rules read.  How many skiers in the world really can do multiples without some hesitation?  I've judged Willie Farrell many times, and he's one of the hardest skiers in the world to judge.

I think many Judges that don't ski really have no idea how hard it is to do multiple turns without SOME hesitation.  So the skier trains hard all year and has a slight hesitation and ends up with squat for his effort.

 

People,  this is one reason our sport is dwindling down more as each year passes.  If we don't make it more skier friendly to the masses, instead of the elite top skiers,  we won't have to worry about the hesitation rule because there won't be any skiers left to Judge!

 

I remember when there was always at least 40 to 50 skiers at every tournament in California.  I went to two last year, there were eight skiers at each tournament!  Our sport needs major changes or it will just become extinct!

 

Mark Bergthold



Edited by Bergthold - April 20 2007 at 5:28pm
Back to Top
Bftskir View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: July 06 2006
Location: Elk Grove, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 1428
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bftskir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2007 at 5:44pm
"Remember.   This idea comes from the grass-roots end of the Sport.   It's all about promotion and development of the sport at the BOTTOM of the pyramid, not the top".
I can't agree more wholeheartedly.
you can compare barefooting to a campfire, once alot of new wood made the fire burn bright, it built up to quite a big fire and then began to die down...and there is very little new wood going into the fire so it dies down more and continues to dwindle down to coals...while you debate over rules that really do not matter to the new barefooter(new wood) the wakeboarding inferno continues to get all the new wood...why? i can only guess: here on the west coast the private lake has removed barefooting from the public eye. 27 yrs ago i was a kneeboarding, waterskiing boater and out at the public lake one day i saw someone do a backdeep and back one foot slalom...from seeing that in person i knew i had to do it...i think partnering with wakeboarding events to give barefooting demonstrations to get it into the boating publics eye again. we can't just hide out on the private lakes and expect new wakeboarders to give a hoot about barefooting. the bottom of the pyramid is deteriorating quickly.
 
I know this was not inline with your thread and i'm not trying to hijack but just put in my 2 cents
 
as far as the questions above:
KISS "keep it simple stupid".
throw out the hesitation rule we are against the clock already and its too subjective. we are trying to jam as many tricks as you can in 15 seconds but you are going to demand the skier hesitate or not hesitate
as far as style...the cleaner the style the easier to be viewed by judges so good style is its own reward...if you are a ball of spray and noone can see what you are doing...no points...
 
and if heinrich jammed more tricks in to his 2 15 second runs making it a world record...so be it. why should he be punished for doing his stuff fast...
 
the thread where kso talked about this hesitation rule is very revealing from someone dealing with it directly...
 
time is the penalty  
 
This is the life!
Back to Top
KennyK View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: December 31 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 221
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KennyK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 12:26am
I couldn't dissagree more on the reason we're losing skiers. You hit it on the head when you said "how many people can do multiple turns anyway"....Exactly! Take that down to front to backs. How many can do them........ Not many. So, the thought that eliminating the hesitation rule is the savior of our sport is ........ well, I don't know how else to put this...Nuts. They're all just waiting at the gate for us to eliminate the rule.... Ya, right. If you look at say, our region, the Midwest for example,we have virtually no mens1 and 2 skiers. This is not a result of being axed  on a multiple....trust me.  Like I said before, it goes much deeper than that, although I do like the campfire analogy. How about this: watching a barefoot tournament is like watching paint dry..... corn grow.... listening to walleyes swim....You get the point. There are other variables, like no money involved and all money put in, but I assure you the masses are'nt leaving because of the hesitation rules.
 
With that said, I guess it really does'nt matter if we eliminate it or not. I'd personally like to see it stay simply because they can be done continuously. But I can gaurantee you this: We won't be digging any private lakes in the near future with all the money generated from entry fees because we canned a rule.
 
As far as judging multiples, it's a hell of a lot harder to try and discern what a guy is doing when he's pounding out 1000 180's with definite hesitation. I'm not in the minority here either. I have'nt talked to one person who's seen that video( and I've talked to a few) that could tell what he was doing the first time they viewed it. After watching it a couple times ..maybe.
 
I still like Foots idea. There is a difference between a "slight" hesitation and an obvious one. And I believe it can be judged as so.
 
I say can the video and leave it to the judges. If the majority rules, so be it..... But then give me my record.,,, on second thought I don't want it beacuse I know it was'nt a continuous turn.
 
Kenny
KennyK
Back to Top
Jonesy920x View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2006
Location: Kazakhstan
Status: Offline
Points: 240
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesy920x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 3:23am
I don't think we need to get wrapped around the axle trying to make judging our sport objective vs. subjective. A lot of Olympic sports are very, very, subjective. To tell the truth I have absolutely no idea how they judge diving, gymnastics, or figure skating. But I do know an obvious hesitation.( isn't that why we have 3 judges, majority rules ?)
 
 From a spectator point of few I can't imagine anything more boring than watching someone do 4 turns in the same direction in 15 seconds.Dead If we want to have more people participate; concentrate on hacking rules like "making sure there isn't slack in the line on a flyer". Did the person jump off the dock and ski away or not ? Or "your one foot wasn't above the knee."
 
 I think we actually need a little more subjectivity in this sport.


Edited by Jonesy920x - April 21 2007 at 3:24am
Back to Top
Foot View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group
Avatar

Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 4:53am
I really like the latest responses...Making progress....

I dont believe that penalizing the skier twice via the downgrade and the time spent wallowing around is too harsh.. I think the sloppy skier gets the downgrade....he didnt do it as well as the clean skier so he gets a slap on the score sheet and a little time penalty...The REALLY sloppy skier gets the slap on the score sheet and MORE of a time penalty...That makes sense to me... I am 100% in favor of  RELAXING the hesitation rule, making it friendlier, but  I cant see us eliminating it and not regretting that decision very quickly....

It is a form of "style points"...The better you are, the more tricks you can do, the more you deserve to win...AND THEN the guy who does more tricks and does them CORRECTLY...well, he REALLY deserves to win....doesn't he???

Foot
AA Region rules...Its hard to be humble when you're this good
Back to Top
aharris View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group


Joined: April 03 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 45
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 7:13am
Making progress?????    Going round in circles more like.

This is about bringing in new skiers to the sport, not about skiers who've been trying to get their turns paid for years and seeing the deletion of the hesitation rule as a way to do so.

Think promotion and development - think about the bottom of the pyramid, not the middle and not the top.    New fresh blood is what we need and this may or may not be the way to bring them in.

And how about all that subjective BS that is the requirement for a one foot, or the line tight as you hit the water (we fixed that one now anyway) or whatever - well OK, believe it or not, I'm told that our new skiers should be able to get turning as soon as possible and not wait for their graduation from the one foots, the toe holds, the tumbles to 2, the tumbles to 1, the hand waves, and as for necks and teeth????   Well there's another discussion for another day...

With the greatest of respect, we must think less about the present skiing population and think more about how we can encourage new skiers in to the Sport.    This is the foundation for the thinking behind this suggested rule change.

The new kids on the block wanna get turning.   Turning's cool, tumbles and 1 foots, necks and teeth ain't; wouldn't it be nice if we made it easier for the kids of today to do what they wanna do....???

I am really grateful to all the contributors so far - thanks for all the thought provoking stuff and we're looking forward to reading much, much more.
Back to Top
Foot View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group
Avatar

Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 7:56am
Somebody else said it first...NUTS
 
Everybody wants to start their first job sitting in the bosses chair...But you gotta work a LONG time to be the boss...EVERYBODY wants to be a senior without having to bother with first through eleventh grade...But to be a senior you have to build your foundation....Like one foots, toe holds etc.... Without those they will NEVER be solid skiers...

 I have seen TOO MANY skiers who are products of the "ski school mentality"...What I mean is they go to a coach and tell the coach what they want to learn...Since they are writing the check, 99% of the time they get lessons on what they want to learn....not what the NEED to learn.... Then they hit the wall... they become disillusioned with the sport and go away...

you wanna keep skiers??? Dont limit their potential with short cuts...Like all things in life, the short cuts in barefooting have a KILLER price tag in the long run...

How about lets teach them to jump first??? Why not??? Its cool...Everybody wants to invert... Lets forget about the basics and start with jumping....Sound crazy??? Whoever told you that the skiers dont need a solid foundation is just that crazy...Get them back on their meds...stat...code blue alert...security to aisle 4.....nut on the loose....
AA Region rules...Its hard to be humble when you're this good
Back to Top
aharris View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group


Joined: April 03 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 45
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 11:41am
Yeah, yeah, yeah - heard it all before...

Look people - NO ONE is saying they don't need to learn how to do all the elementary level tricks first.   If you think that's what this idea is trying to achieve then you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.   This is NOT about jumping the gun or running before you can walk.

The point we are making here is that there is a MASSIVE gap between the elementary level tricks, and scoring multiple turns consistently enough for skiers to develop their trick programmes and get out of their elementary level runs.   When a skier is inside that gap, all that happens is they become bored, and as we have made the judging of the elementary stuff doubly-subjective, they get fed up and lose interest.

I'm all for good solid basics as being the absolute pre-requisite for moving on in your trick run programme.   It can only be that way but...

Now think about narrowing that gap.   Dangle that carrot.   Entice that bored 2K tricker and let him work on getting something for trying to emulate the great turners in our Sport.   Let them realise their aspirations of becoming the Farrell's of the future, the Pennay's of tomorrow, the Derry's of desire, the Scarpa's of success!!!

With the penalty of time and knowing that their turns are nowhere near the level of quality turn that they need to be, BUT the fact that their efforts are now going to be rewarded surely has to be an approach that's worth a serious try-out....

It's not NUTS, it's just different.   It's not 20th century, it's 21st century.   It's what the kids of today want and if we don't do something to give it to them then they'll go off and do something else, just like they did when wakeboarding hit us.   Wakebaording was different, it was loud and out there, it was fun and....it was cool.

Let's stop pontificating about what was and what should be and face the fact that enticing the youth of today to embrace our Sport isn't hapenning and this idea might just make the difference that we need to turn (no pun intended) them back towards us again...
Back to Top
Dan.Cummings View Drop Down
ABC Board Moderators
ABC Board Moderators
Avatar
Dan Cummings

Joined: February 06 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1094
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 12:51pm
Andy and Foot,
 
With all due respect, I'd like to make an observation and suggestion.  You asked us to start this public section so the WBC could get input from the skier.  It seems that instead of listening to the skiers, you are debating with them and now even among yourselves. 
 
My suggestion, again with all due respect, is just listen.  Let the general skiing population tell you what they think, without you guiding their thoughts and debating their points.  Just listen, get as many opinions as you can without telling them what to think or that they are wrong.  Then you can go back over to your private WBC forum and discuss all the data you've gathered.  That's the place for your debate, not here in front of hte world.  In my opinion, respectfully.
Back to Top
Dan.Cummings View Drop Down
ABC Board Moderators
ABC Board Moderators
Avatar
Dan Cummings

Joined: February 06 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1094
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 12:58pm

If the intent is that eliminating the hesitation rule or easing up on it will  bring in more new skiers, as a skier, I disagree.  When I can learn those puppies, I am going to try them them out of pride that I can do them, even if I don't get paid. 

I'd like to hear the answer from skiers if they think changing this rule will bring in more new skiers.  A couple of posts have already said it wouldn't.  Actually, even more importantly, I'd like to hear what people think WOULD bring more skiers in.  Maybe that's another topic.
 
Back to Top
aharris View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group


Joined: April 03 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 45
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 1:25pm
Hey Dan - I hear you but my intent is to fire up these guys in to responding.   It already seems to be working so lets watch and listen...

Thanks for your input which is always welcome...
Back to Top
Bigfoot View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group


Joined: June 08 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 90
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigfoot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2007 at 1:34am
I want to hear opinions and feedback from skiers from every Federation and Region. I can listen to WBC anytime i like??
Back to Top
KennyK View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: December 31 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 221
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KennyK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2007 at 1:19pm
Ok, i'm going to reply one more time and then I'm done.
 
I said it before and I'll say it again. The loss of skiers has little or nothing to do with a rule change. It's much more involved than that. Although I do feel we should lighten up on the lower level skiers in an attempt to boost their moral. i.e. Being more flexible on rerides after missed starts. A little more lenient on basic tricks like one foots, one foot stand ups and so on.
 
I read Andy Macs' posting earlier and agree whole heartedly about getting the sport more intop the public eye. The problem with that is that it takes sponsorships to do so. Remember back in the day when 3 event was on ESPN. I can. I remember seeing a skier do a 540 and I said to myself" I've got to learn that some day". Also, in regards to his post about public verse private lakes: That was then this is now! I grew up with Jeff Milbrath (anyone remember him) on a lake in Southeast Wisconsin. I used to drive for Jeff from time to time. I can remember him training wakes on that lake and also saying to myself "I need to learn that". Guess what?? Training on that lake is no longer an option. Like so many other lakes here in the Midwest, they either have time limits, speed limits, or are inundated with Jet skiers, wake boarders, slalom skiers, or just plain pleasure boaters. Some lakes have time limits, so you can't get up at the crack of dawn to train. Others have speed limits. It's no longer feasable to train on public lakes....... It's suicide!
 
I think what Rod Negus is doing in Minnesota is an awesome idea. He has camps set up to introduce the sport to newcomers. We offer free entry at our tournaments to first timers. I have a school now with rates way below what you would pay at other schools.... So we're trying.
 
I've been around a few tournaments... I run a few tournaments....I listen to skiers. In a nutshell, top three resons for leaving: No water to train on, Cost , and they ( tournaments) are too damn boring.
 
I have ideas on how to potentially fix all these problems. First: We need to have more private lakes not less. Maybe the owners can rent their lakes out to groups of people at scheduled times at a reasonable cost, say 50 - 100 for a half day, to 4 skiers. Either that or skiers need to invite kids out to their honey holes so that they also have an opportunity to experience training without worrying about killing themselves.Cost: Obviously all this takes money. Before I moved close to my site I traveled 50 minutes one way to get to it.... 5 days a week. That gets expensive, and that was before gas went up to a billion dollars a gallon. The guys I train with still travel at least a half hour one way. My point is this: All we do is put money into this sport, and have no chance at winning any. In my opinion that is huge.  I spend a couple grand a season at a chance for a plaque or medal.
I do it because I love it but I think that if we could somehow inject some cash prizes , we would start to see people getting more interested. How do we do that??? I'll leave that to you marketing guru's.
Tournaments: We are attempting to fix the boring problem this season. If we are'nt open to changing our format to somehow make these things more spectator friendly, then we need to add alternative activities so that people have other avenues to entertain themselves. I can't tell you how many skiers struggle  with their spouses and kids because there is nothing for them to do.... And lets face it; watching 100 skiers slalom up and down the lake all afternoon  does not top any of my charts on fun activities. I just got back from the Nationals site yesterday. I delivered a boat load of lumber for a playground ,for the kids. Also, Blake and I just bought a bounce house that will be at all the tournaments. We sited out where we are going to put the volleyball and basketball courts. These are the types of things we need to do.
 
I have never heard one skier complain or threaten to leave because of the hesitation or any other rule.... I take that back. I did hear someone complain about the rotation rule, but that's it. And like I said before, I listen to and talk to a lot of skiers. Of course I can only speak for this region.
 
I like what Dan said before, and I feel the same way. I want to do them(multiples) as clean and as continuous as possible. I don't want to get paid for something I did'nt do. Maybe that's the difference between the 20th and 21st centuries. Aspiring to be like one of those guy's; Scarpa, St Onge, Bowers, Kretchman, Powell, DMJ ( the best multiple turner by the way) is what has always driven me.
 
That's it I'm done with my opinions.
 
Everyone have a great day and a safe ski season.
 
Kenny
KennyK
Back to Top
KennyK View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: December 31 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 221
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KennyK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2007 at 1:28pm
In usual form, I just thought of one more thing. Wasn't the height of barefoot 3 event popularity before we changed all these things. For example: Skylon and lighteneing up on the hesitation rule? Seems to me that when the rule was at it's strictest was when we had the most skiers......... Something to think about. I'm not saying make it more strict, I'm saying, that should tell ya that IT AIN'T the problem.
 
Kenny
KennyK
Back to Top
Dan.Cummings View Drop Down
ABC Board Moderators
ABC Board Moderators
Avatar
Dan Cummings

Joined: February 06 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1094
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2007 at 1:06am
Kenny!  Clap  I agree, changing this rule will not do squat for bringing in new skiers.  In my opinion.
 
This may be a little off topic, but if the objective is to bring in more skiers, then maybe it's not so far off after all.  We are doing a deal for the ladies who have skiers at our tournament in June.  Having a lady in to do nails, and manicures and massages over at the house while the guys are out skiing the tournament.  A little something for those who sit and watch the grass grow at tournaments. 
Back to Top
Jonesy920x View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2006
Location: Kazakhstan
Status: Offline
Points: 240
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesy920x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2007 at 2:29am

Please check out my "off topic" comments in the growing the sport topic under discussion.

Back to Top
barefoot1 View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: April 23 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barefoot1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2007 at 3:01am
Hesitation rules .If it not perfect don't score it .What if we scored one foot slalom with a LL or ED as perfect would that make it easier to judge.As many go to video an get canned after 3 judges in the boat pay it perfectly until they see the replay even in normal speed.If in question put a V on the score sheet it doesn't take long to review. 
Back to Top
Evert Aartsen View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: April 24 2007
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 27
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evert Aartsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2007 at 5:36pm
Hi Andy

This is the worst idea I have ever heared.
The time penalty will work in reverse because usually a good multiple is done with a slow rotation and most sloppy hesitational multiples are fast thrown turns and will actually go faster.
This means that the guy who does a good multiple turn will get punished in time.

Evert.
Back to Top
Joe M View Drop Down
ABC Board
ABC Board


Joined: December 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 130
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 2:03pm
Kenny,
          Please continue with your replies!  We very much are interested in your opinions and ideas.  I like what you have to offer the sport and repsect your commnets very much.
       I completely understand where you are comming from.  From a skier's perspective, I can only do do two multiple turns (FF360 and BB360) of which I can usually only get paid on the FF but am still working to perfect that BB.  I agree that if the goal of this proposal is to lure more skiers, I don't think it will. I also agree with Evert in that a good mulitple turner usually turns slower and in some cases a poor multiple tunrner turns fast with hitches so who really suffers from a time stnadpoint?
    Anyways, please keep those commnet coming!
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
ABC Board
ABC Board
Avatar

Joined: May 03 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 27
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2007 at 5:38pm

In my opinion the hesitation rule for multiple turns has already been deleted for most judges.

 A few years back when they raised the points on multiples turns double what they should have raised them, and then at the same time started paying everything as long as it's in the same direction. It was a double edge sword to a lot of skiers. An example of this not to pick on you Willie but he tricks about the same as Keith, Ron, David, Andre, Patrick These skiers are in a different catagory than Willie but they trick pretty much the same.

 

Jerry
Back to Top
brent.benoist View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group

Brent Benoist

Joined: February 06 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 217
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brent.benoist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2007 at 1:50pm
Flipper has a really good point which relates to degree of difficulty.  Basically, If we make the tricks easier, then we need to take points away from them.
 
We had this problem when the criteria for judging a flip was made much less difficult by allowing the skier to land basically anywhere on his body and get credit for the trick (circa 1989?).  Prior to that rules change the rule required a skier to land on his "feet or seat".  So the trick got much - much easier to complete and score for credit - and nobody thought to downgrade the point value accordingly with the reduced degree of difficulty.  This caused an inequitable situation in tricks for 15 years.
 
Now it may be time to make some adjustments to point values again.  If someone can get into the 9000 point range without being required to do one foot turns, or toe turns, or flips, or wake turns, or other very difficult tricks....   well we need to look at this.
Reserves
Back to Top
Foot View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group
Avatar

Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2007 at 9:05pm
BB,
You got it right again..Degree of difficulty (DOD) is the basis for determining point values for tricks...Make it easier it should pay less....BUT would a 360 be any easier to do correctly??? NO....It would just be easier for the hacker to get credited...

If we look at downgrading the multiples for hesitations we get into the same can of worms we now have....Some harsh judges will can every multiple that isn't at the rotation speed they like or if it looks different to the other one they saw...And some Mother Theresa judges will pay it all...

What we gotta find is the way to standardize judging and better define the tricks so the harsh judges and the slack judges can meet in the middle....without degrading the DOD and value of the trick when performed correctly...

How about it folks...I often hear that I haven't done a good job of defining the trick. That is why everybody has a different slant on what is and what isn't...Lemme hear your definitions that cant be interpreted anyway but the correct way....SOMEBODY out there can add a few words to this that will satisfy the problem of judging multiples

PS. I was watching the Adna worlds with a few skiers last night and after we watched David's trick final one of the skiers said " I feel sorry for the judges"...This was from a skier with World Titles experience who has seen a lot of barefooting...That really illustrated to me the need for all of the judges to do as much practice as possible
AA Region rules...Its hard to be humble when you're this good
Back to Top
KennyK View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: December 31 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 221
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KennyK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2007 at 11:29pm
Flipper(Jerry) no offense, but sounds like sour grapes to me. It's my understanding that the trick values were raised because everyone was avoiding multiples and going after flips. Not to mention, virtually everything was raised except flips... Don't criticize what you can't do.
 
I'm not so sure I'd exclude Willy. The man is a very, very good turner.... Not an average hack, but a very good turner. Although I agree he isn't quite there with the other guys, he's not far off. I challenge you to go out and do multiples to that degree, with that consistency..... and stay on axis like he does. In fact only a couple of the guys you mentioned can. They have other tricks, but can't turn like that.....
 
As far as tricking 9000 without doing 1 foot turns, toe turns, flips etc. etc......It's impossible!!! In fact given the values for the multiples out there you can only trick 6200 with a toe up and back deep included. Add in 4 turns and garbage and you've just hit 7400....that's assuming your good enough to fit all of that into 30 seconds... I know I'm not...... anyway that's quite  a bit away from 9000.
 
Foot, I like the definition the way it is.... or at least the way I've been told it is. That is: as long as you keep some part of your body moving at all times thru the turn, it's good.There are guys out there right now that don't do that and want to get paid. It's very easy, in my opinion to see with the naked eye whether someone does a 180 4 times or actually does a 720.
 
Kenny
KennyK
Back to Top
Dan.Cummings View Drop Down
ABC Board Moderators
ABC Board Moderators
Avatar
Dan Cummings

Joined: February 06 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1094
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2007 at 1:27am
I think the answer is educating officials to gain better consistency in judging rather than re-write the trick description.  And I am certainly NOT in favor of eliminating the hesitation rule.  That is unfair to the guys and gals who have worked hard to remove the hesitation. 
 
Maybe get a committee together with a level 1 judge from every federation to agree on some samples of good multiples and bad multiples (I know this would be a difficult task in itself to get them to agree) and then ask Gary Butler or someone to make a DVD for the officials with the examples of each.  Maybe even show them in slow motion to make the point of they are still moving or not, then post the samples on a web site for all the turners and officials to see 
 
taking that a step further, maybe it's time to have a "video" version of all the trick descriptions.  Show me what I have to do and I'm more likely to ski it or judge it correctly than if you just describe it.
Back to Top
Foot View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group
Avatar

Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2007 at 1:39am
I have tried a few times to get a video of just raw footage of multiples to take before the WBC Officials and Rules committees...All I want is all the multiple that can fit on a disk...no editorials or slo-mo or anything...just raw footage....Very difficult because somebody has to take extra time to do this and we all know about "extra time" Gary sent me something (thanks GB) a few years back but it was edited with slo mo and opinions of what was and what wasnt credit overwritten on the screen so it was not useful for this purpose....I think it was an ABC clinic tape....I disagreed with the NC multiples even then...I saw some beautiful multiples that were called NC on the tape....

So in my not so humble opinion, DC has it 100% correct...We need to standardize.... I LOVE his idea of putting the accepted standard video on the web...The old 1000 words vs 1 picture story....Good one DC
AA Region rules...Its hard to be humble when you're this good
Back to Top
Foot View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group
Avatar

Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2007 at 1:50am
Talking about the point values and lack of variety in a lot of runs..What do you guys think about compulsory tricks???? Wadda ya think about requiring a trick from several categories in an open skiers run???? At least one wake trick, one step trick, one toe trick, one multiple, one flip....

Or maybe there could be a bonus for every additional category over 3 categories that you include..i.e.....if you do multiples, lines and one-foot turns you get the regular pay day...but add in wake turns and a flip and you get an extra 10% for the "variety factor"

Just thinking out loud but I do like to see the guy who includes a variety of categories...Mike Salber would be a good example..He doesnt live or die by one category...He has a bunch of tricks up his sleeve...This type of tricker, the variety tricker, vs the guy who does all line multiples for one whole pass is much more entertaining for me...After I have seen 2 line multiples I am ready to go get an ice cream bar...But show me the guy with multiples, toe turns, a flip, one foot turns, line turns..I am there GLUED to my seat...


AA Region rules...Its hard to be humble when you're this good
Back to Top
KennyK View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: December 31 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 221
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KennyK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2007 at 1:59am
Geez Foot, I like your thinking. At 43 this would hurt me cause I live and die by the multiples, but I still like it. Guess I better get my training shoes on.
 
Kenny
KennyK
Back to Top
Evert Aartsen View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: April 24 2007
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 27
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evert Aartsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2007 at 7:19am
wow foot keep thinking out loud.
This is the best idea that came up for tricks for a long time.
maybey you should post your idea as a special forum item lets see what the barefoot comunity thinks about it.
I love the idea
Back to Top
Foot View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group
Avatar

Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2007 at 7:38am
Evert
Took you advice and started a new topic on this...Take a look..Kick start this one for me...
KK,
As clean as you ski and 2with your fundamentals new tricks arent a problem....just a new challenge...
AA Region rules...Its hard to be humble when you're this good
Back to Top
brent.benoist View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group

Brent Benoist

Joined: February 06 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 217
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brent.benoist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2007 at 4:20pm

As a competitor I had to live through the changes in how multiple turns had been credited and/or discredited for a LONNNNNG time.  In my opinion - as they are currently applied- the attainable points from multiple turns is far too high with respect to other more difficult tricks like flips, one foot turns, toe turns, wake, and step turns.

This is one area that the WBC does need to look at.  I did notice on the SR-Men tricks WSL that the number 2 skier got to more than 5000 points.  I think this was done without doing anything harder than a multiple turn.  Someone please correct me if I am wrong.  If so, this is a new degree of difficulty problem that the WBC needs to address.
Reserves
Back to Top
KennyK View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: December 31 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 221
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KennyK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2007 at 4:48pm
 Brent,This is true, that would be me, however I disagree with you on the difficulty. Multiples are only easy when you know how to do them... Even then they are'nt a given. As far as 1 foot turns go, the hardest part about that trick is convincing yourself you can do it. C'mon Brent, even you should know that.... When done correctly they are easier than any multiple. Also, I don't know how many skiers I know that will tell you the toe back is also easier..... Maybe not in the head, but again once you convince yourself, the technical difficulty is'nt as high as a 360, 540, or a 720.That's just common sense. In a toe back your only turning 180 as opposed to multiple turns. Now if all you're doing is turning 180...stop 180...stop..180  stop, like some skiers, well then ok, maybe.
 
No one does wake turns anymore, so that leaves line steps and flips. I'll agree with line steps.... Can't comment on flips because I've never tried one and don't intend to.
 
It continues to amaze me the people that pooh pooh multiple turns... Ones that are done correctly that is. It's usually skiers that can't do them themselves.
 
Not aimed at you Brent. I've peronally never seen you ski.
 
Kenny
KennyK
Back to Top
KennyK View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: December 31 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 221
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KennyK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2007 at 5:38pm
Ok, I just pulled out a WBC trick value sheet because I'm trying to makes sense of all this nonsense.
 
a ff two foot 360 is worth: 450....1 foot 750!... Line step 950!!!
a f/b two foot 540 is worth 850(my favorite) ,1 foot 540 :1150, line step 1250.
a 2 foot ff 720: 950, 1 foot:1550, I think I wrote 1550.... yes, yes 1550 hmmm, considerably more than a 2 foot. Line step:1750!!!!!!
 
Wow, I guess if we're going to lower multiples, we should lower all multiples, because apparently they're too easy!!!!!!
 
Now as far as a line backs value in relation to a ff 360, ok you got me. I feel a line back is more difficult.... way more difficult. But that's It. a 1 foot to the back as opposed to a ff 360....winner is the ff 360. Now I have'nt tried a toe back on my feet....ever. But I can do em all day on the small shoes and intend to do them on my feet this year.
 
Heck , I've had skiers tell me they would rather do a toe back than a front to back.
 
Now for the flip argument: I only know of a few skiers that can do all three flips..... consistently. Only one of those, that I know of can successfully perform a ff 720 ..... consistently. That would be Brett Sands. The others can't even sniff a 720....consistently, if at all.
 
If they were that easy( multiples) then the open pro division would be inundated with mid level skiers, like myself.
 
I think this takes us back to Foot's idea of cumpolsory tricks or awarding a percentage for diversified runs. This would push guys or gals into incorporating different tricks into they're runs. The question is what the goal would be set at. Can a skier start a run with a one foot turn, go into a series of multiples, then come back with  some 180's, more multiples and a toe back??? Would this classify as three categorys?? If so, I can do that.
 
Kenny
 
 
KennyK
Back to Top
brent.benoist View Drop Down
WBC Group
WBC Group

Brent Benoist

Joined: February 06 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 217
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brent.benoist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2007 at 6:19pm

As I was one of the first people trying to increase the values of - among other things - multiple turns, I can say that the increase that we instituted was based on how the tricks were given credit at that time.  (Foot, Rich, and I created the new point values at my dining room table in about 2002)

The difference between then and now is that back then any little tiny amount of deviation from perfectly continuous would get the multiple turn NC'd.  I took them out of my trick run because they were way too "judge dependent".  Now the multi-turn trick is given credit with much more leniency for continuity.  So in effect the multiple turns are much easier to get credit for now than in 2002 when we made the proposal to increase the point values.  (flipper's point)
 
Multiples are not easy tricks if you have to do them continuously.  I had to suffer through the era of very harsh judging on these tricks.  So I don't want to give the impression that I think they are easy.
 
I am a proponent of degree of difficulty as the ONLY driver for the amount of points a trick can earn.  If one trick is harder than another, it should get more points.
 
Bringing down the points on multiples does not make sense to me, but possibly changing the limit from 8 to 6 does. 
 
What I propose is that for the wake turns we need to add another 200 points each.  They are definately harder to make than the points they earn.  For one foot turns, we need to add another 50 points each, and for step turns to the back we need to add another 200 points.  These are examples, there may be others.
 
Foot's idea of compulsory tricks is not something I could support without more definition.  When the wind starts blowing down the course at 25 mph, I would not want to have to do a toe turn.  This reminds me of when we had to submit written trick lists and not vary from the trick list -  that was a bad idea.
 
With that said, I believe there are about 5 logical DOD levels of tricks, and that if our compulsory rule said that we must complete tricks from 3 of the catagories, then that may have some value.
 
As for the original issue, the interpretation that Ken quoted for how multiples are supposed to be judged is not in the rule book, and all judges do not agree with this interpretation.  That's why I keep coming back to putting a better description of continuity into the rule book.
Reserves
Back to Top
KennyK View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: December 31 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 221
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KennyK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2007 at 9:41pm
Brent, I fully support lowering the amount of multiples from 8 to 6. Also, I've always thought wake turns were under paid. Especially given the time it takes and the DOD.
 
Actually, I think reducing multiples from 8 to 6 is a better idea than cumpolsory tricks. It still forces guys like myself to include other tricks, and like you wrote, it gives the option to skiers in case of a hurricane, ala 2004 Nationals.
 
Kenny
KennyK
Back to Top
Dan Goldie View Drop Down
Barefoot Enthusiast
Barefoot Enthusiast
Avatar

Joined: April 21 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan Goldie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2007 at 10:59pm
I'm a bit late to this topic, so excuse me if I cover old ground.
 
I think Andy Harris's original proposal to be rid of hesitation entirely was a very good way of gettin us to look at this issue from another angle, but I believe that in the end it is not really a viable option.
 
Time being a penalty aside, I'm a skier who is just getting into doing multiple turns (so actually andy's idea would benefit me personally) and as a skier I recognise that there is a very significant technical and ability difference between doing two 180 turns (taking up one whole pass) in a 360 motion, and doing a 360 turn as part of a pass. Because of this, I think it is important to distinguish those two examples I mentioned with appropriately different point values.
 
At the moment I understand a hesitation to be (correct me if I'm wrong) a pause/interuption in the circular motion of a multiple turn. This can be caused by two things:
 
-Turning Technique/Style: As mentioned by Foot, stepping under, over, through or however one chooses or is taught to turn can cause unavoidable "hesitations" simply by nature of the technique.
 
-Skier Error: During a turn becoming off-balance, missing the handle, bad form etc will usually cause a skier to pause in order to regroup and correct themselves, thus causing "hesitation"
 
        I hope all of you will agree that it is the latter cause that is fair to penalize by using a hesitation rule. The crux of the problem is how we can refine the rule to allow judges to draw a clear, definitive, and non-subjective line between the two.
 
You may notice that when I defined "hesitation" as it stands, I stressed it being a pause in "circular" motion. This it what I think should be changed (whether in the rules or just in the minds of judges). How about looking at hesitations as "a pause/interuption in the necessary motion or technique of carrying out a multiple turn"? For example, if a skier pauses at 180 degrees in an otherwise flawless 360 turn due to his turning style, then yes there is a break in the circular motion of the turn which currently can be judged as hesitation. But, as skiers know, that break in circular motion is NOT necessarily a break in motion entirely. Instead the skier has directed the motion of his turn into (for example) changing which foot his weight is on or up/downweighting depending on sed skier's turning style.
 
In a nutshell, as long as the skier remains in control of the multiple turn and does not stop the process of their technique entirely ( ie. does not remain in a standard front or back skiing position without making any visible effort to continue turning), they should not be penalized. Likewise, if a skier looses control and so must halt their turning process in order to regain control, or simply is making no effort to continue the multiple turn then they should be docked.
 
Thoughts?


Edited by Dan Goldie - May 06 2007 at 11:01pm
Dan Goldie,
GB Barefoot Team
The EAME Region. Often imitated, never duplicated
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.