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Deleting the hesitation rule for multiple turns - Event Date: April 15 2007

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Foot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2007 at 12:49am
Dan Goldie
You are onto something...It is hard to convince a lot of judges that have never tried multiples or worked coaching top level turners that "hesitations" (at least what they call hesitations) are unavoidable with most skiers styles... A lot of judges think a 540 or 720 can be done like a FF 360....But they cant....Impossible....

The safer the skier's style the more he will APPEAR to hesitate...But as you have so rightly pointed out they are still moving... They are up weighting or switching feet...The motion is there but it has changed direction....Linear rather than circular...But it is still a motion that is necessary to completing the trick....GOOD POINT...Thanks a mint for that
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2007 at 5:29am
Lots of good and detailed analysis of my topic for which I am grateful, but with respect to you all, I think everyone is missing my point.

I know only too well the problems of judging multiple turns.   I have sat and listened to every argument under the sun on the pros and cons of performing them and judging them any which way you can.

The whole point of my suggestion removes all those caveats and considerations that we currently employ when judging these tricks.

The new philosophy of judging that was adopted by the WBC some years ago asked judges to consider any element of whole-body movement when judging multiple turns i.e. if the lower body stopped moving but the upper body didn't then this did not constitute a hesitation.

Has that message gotten through?    Well yes and no - which means there is still clearly some inconsistency.

The beauty of this suggestion is that it will remove that inconsistency.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesy920x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2007 at 5:02am
Cool now that I can do 2 turns in one direction, I'm done  having learning to learn any new tricks. I just need to do them faster.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2007 at 7:03am
Yep - you sure could but don't forget all the existing rules would still prevail i.e....

2 multiple turns in the same direction must be separated by a trick e.g. a 1 foot, a wave.

If you want to score the reverse it must be in the opposite direction, and, it must be in the same pass as the basic.

I know you know all this stuff but I'm just clarifying the simplicity of what deleting the hesitation rule would mean.

I hope we can give it a try before the end of this decade!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evert Aartsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2007 at 7:54am
I hope we will never try it.
Lets say the same for onefoot turns if you try to lift your foot we are paying for it same thing.
Lets make an effort to get our judges on the same level as our skiers.
For as long as I remember the quality of judging is way below the quality of skiing.
Don't get me wrong I have great respect for the men and women sitting in the boat day in day out to judge us but I believe we should take the education and the training of judges more serious.
JUdges need to sit in the boat more then just in competitions they need to train just as we do that would be one step forward as I know many judges only see skiers at competitions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2007 at 2:13am
I have to agree with Evert.
 
If the teachers arent up to teaching a subject should we allow the kids to graduate without being able to read?????? or should we bring the teachers up to the level that they should be and make the teachers actually teach the kids to read????
 
Just because we have a LARGE number of judges who dont get the necessary exposure to judge multiples and dont seek that exposure from sources other than the occasional open skier in tournaments and the WBC hasnt done a proper job of promulgating the criteria on judging multiples, that doesnt mean that the problem with judging multiples is a Gordian Knot and requires radical surgery to a good system...It means the judges need to work at their craft just as the skiers do..that means practice BETWEEN tournaments...
 
I have been priviledged to have been in the boat with MANY judges who have NO PROBLEM with judging multiples.. Any skier who is doing them can tell you what is and what isnt... How can this be such a problem if it is easy for a great number of people????
 
Education, practice and TESTING of our officials is the answer....Our skiers get tested every tournament..Their scores are their report cards...They pass or fail at EVERY tournament....Our officials get graded on whether they show up or not...no further grades are posted...Sound fair????
 
The WBC is now requireiing a resume detailing their participation and the score from their level one test before an official can be considered for an appointment to the Worlds panel....I hope this gathering of qualifying data goes right back to the local level and the judges are graded by the CS and CJ at every tournament so the regions will actually have hard data about the ability level of the judges they are sending to the Worlds....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2007 at 8:13pm
The point of this proposal is nothing whatsoever to do with the standard of judging, nor is it about trying to fix the problems of judging multiple turns.   The last 2 posts are way off the point.

The fundamental reason surrounding this proposal is to allow new skiers to climb the ever-so-steep learning curve that our sport has, just that little bit easier.

Don't you get it?!   It's nothing to do with the judging, it's to do with the skiing.   Forget the rules and forget the judging, just for a minute.   Think about making it easier to get on in our Sport.   Not like you had to; you had to do it the hard way, the way that worked then but that clearly ain't working now.

It's a different animal now.   Make it easier for people to get on in our Sport and then may be we'll see the numbers start growing again.

Get your heads out of the sand my friends.   Climb out of the tunnel.

Think about what this could mean in terms of increasing numbers of skiers world wide.

Thanks for thinking....

Edited by aharris - May 29 2007 at 8:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2007 at 8:46pm
OK..Head is above ground and I am out of the tunnel...I am thinking...

I am thinking that if ANYBODY thinks making multiples easier is gonna increase our numbers they have to rethink their position... It isn't multiples that are so hard...it is those first turns that are the Mount Everest of barefooting...Specifically that first F/B... Find a way to allow skiers to do that easily and you have cracked a nut... Stepping from the non-turner to the turner is at least a year of hard falls...Learning multiples is a LOT easier...You know you can do it...you are just perfecting a routine that you already have...The hard work is done by the time you are learning multiples... Gimme a guy with 2 good turns in the same direction and I will have them doing a reasonable BB and a FF in no time..Gimme a non-turner and I will see you some time late next year.

I can see this having an impact on skiers..but not a positive one...

Foot


Edited by Foot - May 29 2007 at 8:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evert Aartsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2007 at 4:55am
I agree completely with Foot.
I did not even consider the reason you mentioned Andy and You can't mean that I hope.
If we want more skiers in to our sport we need to look at the whole concept and find a way to make it fun to come to competitions, COMPETITIONS ARE BORING FOR MANY PEOPLE.
I don't have an exact plan but I do have some ideas.
I think if we could find the time to get a group of old skiers new skiers and officials toghether for a brainstorm session we will be able to rescue our sport.
Giving free points away is not the way to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KennyK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2007 at 12:18pm
Amen Foot.......Amen Evert!!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2007 at 1:30pm
I totally agree with you Foot, Avert and Kenny.  I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2007 at 5:15pm
Andy, with all due respect, I agree with Foot, Avert, Kenny and Joe.  As I and several others have said at the beginning of this topic, this change will do nothing to get new skiers involved.  It's the skier trying to do the first turns that needs the encouragement.  Multiples aren't a beginner, just getting into the sport, kind of trick.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesy920x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 2:39am

I was a bit sarcastic when I gave my thoughts before.  Andy are you crazy ? If you think that making multiples easier is going to bring more people into the sport you are part of the reason why this sport is dying. Evert is correct we need new and old brainstorming. Once you crack the seal on the FB and reverse, the rest is history, every multiple is just 180's linked together better. Andy if you can rewrite the laws of physics to make the FB easier I think you are on to something.



Edited by Jonesy920x - June 04 2007 at 1:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2007 at 4:34pm
Think about getting on or progressing in our sport.

I'm not suggesting that this idea would bring more people in (although I hope it would have that knock-on effect).   This is about making the task of learning multiple turns much more worthwhile for the skier.

Isn't it better to see skiers opting for multiples in their runs rather than say neck and teeth tricks?

Scott: How does making multiples easier kill the sport?   Is it becuase it will de-value the tricks and those that have spent years perfecting them will feel aggrieved and just think that if this is what this sport is coming to then I'd rather not play anymore?


Edited by aharris - June 05 2007 at 4:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesy920x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2007 at 2:05am
Andy
 
I like the whole Idea that you presented this topic and got us all fired up, I feel that was your intention to begin with. Now how about implementing it this way.... (BTW I was trying to fire this up again because I think it's a good topic)
 
What about your Idea for age division skiers and current book for open ? I feel open and especially open pro skiers should be held to a different standard ie: leaders of the sport that we all aspire to be someday. Cut your teeth in divisional then perfect it in open. 
 
Some will take thier "game" and go home, but that has happened for the last 20 years. I would rather see someone like Willy spinning like a top instead of anyone doing 6 180 degree turns in one pass. If we keep open/open pro at current book and divisional with you idea we could have both scenerios. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2007 at 4:40pm
Interesting idea.   What do others think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2007 at 6:14pm
I, Like EVERYBODY else who has responded think this whole idea of eliminating the hesitation rule is nuts...Sounds like something REG would think up....Kooky..There is a BIG difference between progressing our sport and digressing our sport...

I am all for beneficial changes..I have been part of the force behind most of the changes in the past 15 years...NOBODY puts more change items on the agenda than I do....Single judges....single ball course...No need to ski past ride out in jump...New point values based on degree of difficulty....I championed all of those causes because I saw the benefit...BUT...Change isn't always the best idea..It must be a beneficial change...

To dilute the skill level necessary to go to the World Class level is a SLAP in the face to all of those who have achieved that and I absolutely fail to see how helping a skier into open who doesnt deserve to be there is gonna help our sport progress...

How can you judge the divisional skier differently? Cant everyone see the impact that will have on SL scores? We will have skiers going into the open division who will not be able to compete with an open skier...Talk about crushing them....

How will that be for the skier having to make the transition from CRAP judging to real judging...Dont you think that will be a BIG let down... last week they skied 5000 points and this week they score 50???? Talk about letting the air out of a skier!!!

We have always preached that we treat everyone the same...That way when they get to a Nationals or Worlds they aren't disappointed by the level of judging...They are ready...They know from experience what is and what ain't..This is just pablum for the lesser skiers and will not help one bit...

Those that are gonna learn multiples will still learn multiples...Those that aren't, wont...This will change nothing for the positive...

How about we talk about something constructive???? This horse has been dead since the second day it was posted...


Edited by Foot - June 06 2007 at 6:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2007 at 6:57pm

Andy, I have to agree with Foot on this one (well most of what he says anyway)  If you go back and read all the posts, you've had 2, count them two, people who agree with your idea. Everyone else has disagreed.  With all due respect my friend, accept and move on......

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesy920x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2007 at 8:40pm
As my wife has pointed out to me many a time, I should think before I speak. I forgot about the SL. So my Idea sucks. Keep it status quo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote footerchick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2007 at 10:22pm

Forgive me if the following reiterates points that have been made several times. I’ve been outraged by what I’ve heard about this discussion second hand through my husband, but have been buried in graduate school since January and haven’t had time to weigh in on this issue. So, now I’d like to explain why I think eliminating the hesitation rule is completely absurd.

 

In the last month I’ve had the opportunity to watch barefoot videos from an era when the sport received recognition from ESPN, and there were several cash prize tournaments. It seems there were *many* more competitors back then, yet the sport seemed *much* harder: skiers used low pylons, stretchy ropes, and skied behind boats such as the Barefoot Nautique that created a monster wake. In addition, I’ve been informed that it was harder to score a trick. Was anyone whining back then about how difficult the sport was?

 

From what I understand, the premise behind this entire discussion is to “allow new skiers to climb the ever-so-steep learning curve that our sport has.” I’d like to see the new skiers that are trying multiple turns.

 

If we want to make the learning curve easier for new skiers, then consider diminishing the nit-picking on basic tricks. For example, at my very first tournament I received an NC for a 360 tumble turn because I had a “hesitation” in the rotation; never mind that I completed the trick. I have also been hacked on a back one foot for not lifting my foot high enough out of the spray, and for having slack in the rope on a front flyer that I skied away from. The only reason I continued to participate in tournaments at that time was because I owned a promo boat and needed to be around anyway. Now I am in too deep and have devoted too much to just walk away.

 

As a former 3-event skier I can attest to the fact that this branch of waterskiing does not award credit for any sort of hesitation for multiple turns. The skier must be continuously moving to receive credit for 360s, 540s, or 720s.  Without this standard, multiple turns would essentially be eliminated from the trick event. Why should this be different in barefooting?

 

Let’s make an analogy between the present discussion and the problems in the U.S. education system. K-12 education has serious grade inflation problems because everyone is supposed to “feel good” about themselves. Kids graduate thinking they are brilliant…then go to college and get their asses kicked. Organized sports at the K-12 level contribute to this problem by giving every kid a trophy whether they are in first place or last place. Using this type of system, why should anyone be motivated to push themselves to a higher level when everybody gets the same reward in the end anyway? If everyone gets a trophy, the trophy loses meaning. Therefore, if we dummy down multiples to a series of 180s, the tricks lose their meaning. Furthermore, it doesn’t make sense to have different scoring systems for divisional and open skiers.

 

The bottom line is that eliminating the hesitation rule discriminates against the skiers who are capable of doing these tricks properly. Having the honor of spending many hours on the water with Kenny K I have witnessed first hand the time, patience, and physical sacrifice that it takes to perform multiple turns. Why penalize the skiers who have demonstrated the tenacity and dedication to barefooting that is necessary to perform multiple turns? I think this creates the risk of turning off/ losing the very skiers who are the role models and teachers for newcomers to the sport. Without skiers of their caliber that properly execute the difficult tricks, who will motivate new skiers to keep pushing themselves to the next level?

 

Sorry Andy, but I respectfully, yet vehemently disagree with your proposal to eliminate the hesitation rule for multiples. And I can’t even turn…YET! Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2007 at 9:49am
Ding dang
These people are pretty cool dudes...and chick...smart too...

Footerchick, Good luck with the grad school...Been there and know how much dedication it takes to keep on keeping on...I think you just gave away the secret of who you are.....

DC, I always knew you would agree with me someday!!!! And it seems to be happening more and more...I LOVE the forum...

Jonsey, Did we marry sisters???? Your wife and mine give the same advice..And I pay as much attention as you do..Maybe we are related as well...Sorry, I know thats a scary thought..

I just had surgery on my foot..still a little groggy from the anesthesia...Dont know how I broke it....Just started hurting one night a couple of months ago...According to the quacks I probably did it years ago and the bit of bone has finally moved into a bad spot so it had to come out...Had to use kryptonite to get to it....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geauxstfooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2007 at 12:19pm
Footerchick,

That was well said.

I agree with Foot's theory that when there is doubt about a hestitation that there is no hestitation. I first thought that eliminating the hesitation was a good idea, but I've heard a lot of good reasons on this forum to keep and institute a "clear hesitation" rule.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aharris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2007 at 8:53pm
Greetings from a sweltering hot London everyone.

Well, I guess I'm gonna have to call this one to a halt, as Dan rightly suggests.   Before I do though, you all ought to know that I started this topic for 2 reasons....

1. In order to get everyone fired up - think that worked out OK (well spotted Jonesy).

2. I was championing this cause on behalf of someone else, only becuase they have tried so hard to convince me that this was a good idea and I have never been able to even remotely agree with them.   When the forum went live, I thought more and more about how this ludicrous idea might work and then I thought I'd give the guy a break and bounce it off you guys.   I'm really glad that I did!

Things started back-firing a little at first; I thought people were warming to the idea!    But then everyone started sleeping on it and well, you know the rest.

I want to thank everyone for their considered thoughts and their very constructive views.   Very good and well-balanced arguments for which I thank you all again.

Dan & Joe L - can we please leave this topic live for the moment as I want to go through the repsonses with the idea's originator when we are next together at the computer.   Thanks Chaps.

Edited by aharris - June 12 2007 at 9:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stokeman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2009 at 8:32pm
My view is in the 90's multiples were too difficult to score.  I even had a judge tell me that a 540 was impossible.  I actually never took the time to master more than a 360 because it wasn't worth the risk to not get paid.  Now it has swung completely the other way.  I think it's a joke how some multiples are paid.  In my book many that get paid aren't even close.  It is way to easy to get paid on multiples these days.  It is keeping many skiers away from advancing their one foot tricks because they can fill an entire pass with hitched 180's.

Something needs to be done.  I like Andy's idea on some levels.  I always thought point down grades for butt outs on turns especially toe turns was ridiculous because you punish yourself by having to take time to recover from your mistake.  I'm not sure that this will work with hitching.  As you can see on some of the videos.  There are guys that despite a noticeable pause in their turns, they complete the turns relatively quickly.  The beauty of multiples and the reason they are valuable on a score sheet is because they are difficult to smoothly link together.

Somehow it needs to be defined differently to get a result somewhere between how is was judged in the 90's and how they are being given away now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2009 at 10:28pm
Stokeman is SOOO RIGHT.. The multiples that are getting paid AS RECORDS in some areas of the world are absolute crap... The problem is some skiers arent getting corrected by the judges and they continue doing crap turns.. If the judges would do their job and cut them then they would clean it up..

And it aint just multiples.. One foot turns starting from 2 feet... Toe turns starting with both hands on the handle.. the list goes on..

The WBC recognises this problem and has finally started a process to make some judges training DVDs (thanks to Gary Butler for providing the raw footage)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EAF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2011 at 1:33pm
Andy. That is the worst proposal I have ever heart coming from you it really surprises me. It would be the biggest downgrade of our sport ever. I am more for: a perfect multiple scores (with perfect I mean no hesitation) and an imperfect scores Zero. Let's stop being pussy's and start to train hard to learn to perfect tricks instead of looking for ways out of hard training by trying to get paid for a multiple that is not a multiple.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stokeman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2011 at 1:47pm
I'm personally concerned as a competitor.  I stayed away from multiple turns as I developed into a top contender.  At the time, early 90's, there were several judges in the US that thought any multiple turn started from the back position was impossible.  So I focused on other tricks, one foot turns, toe turns, line steps, etc.  I was able to trick 6,700 points without one single multiple turn.

My fear is I will be beat in the 2012 World's by a competitor that get's paid for hitch filled multiples.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stokeman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2011 at 1:49pm
Ben Groen has proved that hard work can get the hitch out of multiples.  His are amazing along with Dave and Keith.  Most others don't cut it in my book.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2011 at 5:50pm
My opinion has been evolving to a downgraded score for hitched multiples... You r opinion of perfect ios different than Andy's which is different from REG's which is different from mine.. Some multiple are so close they get looked at in video review 20 times before getting that big ZERO.. I would accept putting a harsh downgrade on them to keep people trying them but not to make it like Stokeman suggests where a clean skier gets beat by penalized multiples..
Stokemans comment about how he worked every other trick coz multiples were a negative target for so many judges is a prime factor in my swaying of opinion..
The WBC has put the points on multiples coz we feel that multiple turns are what we want to see.. They are risky, take huge time and effort to learn and NOBODY can do them every time.. David and KSO cant do their multiples 100% of the time.. Neither can Ben or AJ or Paul or Andre or anybody.. A run by any top skier with the 8 multiples we allow will always, and I mean EVERYTIME, have problems..
To allow downgrades will promote more people attempting them.. This dogma has been proven by every other trick after we allowed downgraded scores for them..

Stokeman, Would you have been so gun shy of multiples if they had penalty scores instaead of ZERO for hesitation?? Would you have not worked them if the judging wasnt an all or nothing affair???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Gray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2011 at 11:44pm
If we gave full points to multiples that have no clear hesitation....like World Record standards (which by the way have a very large window of acceptable).
 
AND we gave 50% points for anything below that standard....
 
I believe we would see judging standards come in line on the full point multiples. Judges that today give points for "hitched" turns would then give downgrades for those and set high standards on full point turns. Human nature...very few people can give a ZERO for an effort like a slightly hitched 720.
 
Also, I believe we would see an immediate increase of surface turns by skiers of all levels.
 
I think a two tiered system MAY be an answer for the current state of our sport.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2011 at 3:33am
I had a conversation with John Price today regarding Ashleighs record submissions.. His comment was the judges must need to sharpen up since she has had so many submissions fail record review.. I preached a sermon about how the judges are giving the skier the benefit of the doubt coz the "all or nothing dogma" we now preach is just too hard for a lot of judges to hand out.. Especially when they see the skier so frigging close and they know how much work has been invested..

I think we all are less strict on multiples coz we all have acceptable degrees of hesitation and we all dont want to take that much away from a skier for a few 100ths of a second hesitation.. On the other hand if I could give a skier 1/2 credit for a hesitated multiple I am sure that I would hold "perfect" at a higher level and would cut some that I now pay..

Dont get me wrong.. I am not asying I pay everything coz I dont want to hurt anybodys feelings.. I am saying that if I have a strong doubt, I lean in favor of the skier.. If I have no doubt, I cut the trick.. But there a re a hell of a lot of them that are so close that is is too hard to make the call instantly so it goes to the skier.. I know that is not the way we are supposed to judge but the "all or nothing" creed is too harsh for me to apply across the board.. And I am not in a minority as evidenced by the best judges in the world submitting records that do not mass muster..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan.Cummings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2011 at 9:56am

I would suggest going back and reading this whole topic before responding.  This topic started in 2007!  Interesting reading for sure.  Respectful debate for the most part!

I'll add my .02 worth on the current suggestion.  As a judge, you make a snap judgment in the boat on if you saw hesitation or not.  It either registers or it doesn't, you mark it and are on to the next trick.  There is no time to "think" or "debate" with yourself.  A judges view of a hesitation is set before they get in the boat. 
 
So, let's help standardize the thinking by clearly defining WITH VIDEO what constitutes pause and show examples.  Why not take video clips of what the governing body wants to be considered as hesitation and what is considered scoreable and send them to every judge in the world.  For that matter, post them for all skiers to see as well.  That way we get all judges and skiers closer to being on the same page.  The videos could be taken from record reviews.  If it didn't score in record review, post it at both full speed and slo-mo so everyone can learn.  As has been pointed out, the skiers work on their craft, so should we as judges.
 
I'll stop rambling for now.  :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2011 at 4:31pm
I agree 10000% with Dan C about the need for a video training program with examples of acceptable multiples adn "close but no cigar" multiples.. Unfortunately the WBC member who is in charge of producing these videos has only made it to first base so far.. It's a lot of work and we just dont seem to have the man power to get it done.. Gary Butler did a tremendous amount of work in this field but unfortunately Gary's personal opinions were reflected in the videos (at least in the ones I saw) and they were not always in concert with the WBC's opinions..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2020 at 12:13am
I won't pretend to know what's happened in the thirty something years I've been away but I was there for the first ten plus and I was John Cornish's rules committee chairman. I've long thought it was a mistake to put anything beyond FF and BB in the rules because it begins to look repetitive and boring for those on the bank and yeah, I was clearly part of that problem back in the day. JMO. 

Don't think eliminating multiple surface turns would do anything appreciable for participation though. I've long thought it was wakeboarding that killed barefooting. Many of the hot dog showoffs who used to go into footing started going to wake boarding. I stand to be corrected given I haven't been involved in thirty years and I don't have a solution...but I am starting to foot again. 6:30 most mornings. All this stuff's a lot harder now at 64 after a thirty year lay off than it used to be.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2020 at 12:23am
Just noticed how old this thread is. Apologies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Meek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2020 at 11:56pm
Some skiers lead with their head. Others pull the handle in (FTB initial action) or release the handle (BTF initial action) or compress their stance or unweight or any other combination of twitches pushes, pulls or head movements.. Multiples are subjective and stylized. In my perfect world, a good skier adapts to what is scorable- or better yet tosses it all out the window, talks some trash on the dock and does whatever they want. Who cares anyway?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 04 2020 at 2:13am
Who cares anyway? Seems the question of the thread.  With the answer being fewer and fewer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Meek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 04 2020 at 2:43pm
I apologize - didn't intend to sound flip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2020 at 5:49pm
No worries
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